
GOOD GANGSTERS INTERVIEW EACH OTHER (Summer '08)
WE BOTH CAN QUIT TODAY!
Good Gangsters: Esther Lu & Adnan Yıldız
When we received this invitation from Lotte to partake in her co-edited anthology on curating, we were just recovering from our last show “Good Gangsters in Town”1. It was a sort of peak of our collaboration that had been transformed a lot during the last two years’ experience within the institutional framework of Curatorlab2. For this book, we decided to produce five questions each, and both answer to the total ten, which were produced with personal desire to answer and ask to each other. We also asked Lotte to guess which question was produced by which one of us, and gave a score to her regarding how much she knew us. (She scored six out of ten!) The game of which is who, however, does not remark on anything but Good Gangsters' united humour—how we have come through the process of becoming a bonded collective.
Good Gangsters like to ask questions more than giving answers; they like to reflect themselves more than repeating or reproducing. Good Gangsters means working equally under the same title, sharing the costs and benefits for believing in a better world and creating a critically interesting discussion. This is the first time they interviewed each other.
QUESTIONS & ANSWERS
*You are welcome to guess which question is produced by which one of us. And later you can score yourself by checking out. Answers could be found in the end of the text.
1) What's the most interesting and inspiring part of curating to you?
It inspires me. It inspires me to be curious and keen to the subtlety of how human mind functions in relation to what we make the world today, especially extracted by artistic transformation. The interior and the exterior of curating for me somehow work the same as well as in a micro level to perceive the commonly shared humanity, and I think it is a language I’d like to employ to question and position myself in this exchange process and relation. I also believe that curating is a very interesting means to project visions and generate communication in society, and in turn, ideals are transmitted and shared with open critique and tolerance. Of course, this is the more romantic side of it. I could also answer that it often upsets me, since a great part of such endeavour comes along with a big challenge vis-à-vis the general struggles in the infrustrature to negotiate with commercial influence and the often nationalist biased funding systems, and these are fundementally remapping our boundaries.
It possibly opens channels for new forms of human relations. Or let me say it more clearly, maybe like this, it forms new relations between people. You spend time and energy in front of something, which is produced by another human mind, and in order to be engaged into something else you move through your experience. As audience, we all share the same ground and this is the most important moment of our practice.
What I feel myself best quality at doing is much related with my approach, I produce and design interactions, dialogues and conflict resolutions between people considering diverse contexts of culture, code and communication. In that thinking, I propose a very social, political and critical approach and a position in the societies that we live in, so it is always a bit personal in each case, at this point, what we as Good Gangsters, produce -at the end of the day- as a proposal was a website and a fictional name, which owns everything we produce together. Our collaboration is not based on money, but audience…
So, in the end we can still be independently working together. I am inspired by the way we challenge each other and let each other live freely with that choice –whatever it is at the end of the day. I think, what we are learning together is basically how to make an adult choice with a childish hearth and an idealist mind. And we always stay together when the choices are being transformed. I sometimes feel like I am watching the stars in the sky at night from Grand London or Taipei 101 and from a very long distance, I see our collaboration as sharing life and producing good work together. That’s also what I feel good about my job, curating gives you a way of personalizing, interacting and mirroring with your work. It is a freelance form of capitalism giving you a chance to decide your salary, schedule and program. This does not mean being isolated and alienated as a member of post-fordist global society. I think both of us feel the importance of trying to be globally and locally critical…
For instance, as a curator, I decide on my own working schedule, my own salary and my own subject matter! Isn’t this great?
2) Do you think a curator should be critical? What is the connection between curating and producing a critic?
I think at least the curator I want to be is critical. However, there are different materials and forms of performance for curators and critics to apply. The relationship of art and text is conceptualized and exercised with different approaches to meet various purposes, albeit they both could give light on the visibility of an artwork or an exhibition. I do not play on the relationship between the noun and the adjective term; what concerns me most is my practice involved not as a representation of such relationship, but an active dialogue with artists and the public which opens possibilities to engage contemporary culture in diverse productions—thinking, debating, producing discourse, collaborating to fulfill or hollow our questions in social reality.
Practically yes, de facto not always. The feeling of doing something as a must kills your consciousness. You can’t possibly be critical if the form of critic is not independent from the subject of it. You have to be self critical in your approach in order to keep focus, so that’s why you have to be personally engaged into the critic but not personalize it at all.
This is a sort of thin red line: Curating is not a form itself but it is a sort of practice, which is based on eclectic forms of processing the artistic practice. It also involves producing and designing diverse forms of critic. Producing a critic can be also done by other ways, writing and political activism; but when it is curating, its subtlety is rare… Connection is there between the institution and the curator; how you transform the private money into a public discussion; without leaving a place for independently critical.
3) Do you think there are a certain criteria or condition to good curating?
Yes and no. There are a certain criteria to say what is good and bad curating, but I think there shouldn’t be any condition as an excuse for bad curating. One of my personal parameters for good curating is probably also about how a curator use well the given condition and context, since there are always different forms of power and resistance along curatorial practices. I think, how a curator could respond to them and operate outside of the box is critical to good curating.
I like to answer this kind of questions by categorizing or clustering like old school teachers. First you have to cough to sound more convincing... Eheu, eheu...and then explain; there are basically 3 main ways of being a good curator.
- A good curator tries to maintain mostly the same conditions to artists s/he works with. S/he never buys a flight for her/himself when only paying for a bus transfer for the artist she works with or she accepts the conditions of getting fee as a curator when the artists are not in the same show or in the same institutional organization. A good curator builds up a fair economy for the team.
- A good curator tries/is (to be) critical to his or her context. S/he should always-never take any situation personal, especially when it is time to be critical. This is the most difficult part of it; it is very rarely done by anyone. Working with institutions and organizations, s/he could easily turn into a conservative officer who only confirms his boss and say yes to his highest and no to her/his assistants. They only use and abuse their assistants and young people. They like to be the chief. Chief-waiters in big tables. Bringing paintings and decorations to their Apollo-dog-owners and feeling good when given chocolate.
- A good curator opens discussions, which would not be opened without her/his projects. These discussions don’t have to be always popular or correct, but have to be based on observation, and related to the social and political context, and also risk taking in the present. They should be working within the contexts they are designed or produced in but not pretended.
4) What is a failure? What is a success?
Aha—do I have to distinguish between these two to be critical? But I really do not have an answer for this question. To me, it always depends on a specific subject in some certain context to ground this question, or better it remains as a conceptual dialectic.
Failure is the end of success, and the success is the end of failure. Success is not power, but gives power for controlling it as a tool of challenging it. Failure is not losing, but winning over the winner, if you still have your hopes. Being more interested into the process, rather than its product is a must for Good Gangsters.
5) When do you think we need an exhibition? And what does it mean to make an exhibition to you regarding creating a new space?
To me an exhibition is always a specific spacetime continuum. It has its physical dimension, but its mental horizon is perhaps the most critical and mysterious part, and probably it is where our aesthetic experience is constituted and where its impact lays. Whenever the linkages between the social-political circumstance and the insights of an exhibition are well curated, an exhibition could be staged in the public realm to stretch itself, take its visible volume to open conversations and discussions.
We need a show when the discussion is not possible anymore with words; when we need to see the ideas as forms and images. Not as illustrations or representations of ideas but reflections and digestions of them. Not only using ideas as an argument or discussion, but also as a way of producing and processing things. We need a show when we need to adjust ourselves to the reality and remember our dreams.
Let me talk about my “one-and-only” in the history of philosophy about regarding your question: According to Foucault, all spaces exists in a certain relation to each other and to the social structures of power, describing heterotopia as every schism between real and ideal social spaces. Although heterotopia exists in relation to social power, Foucault asserts that heterotopia is a kind of neutral zone beyond the dominion of conventional social structures of power and power relations. In other words, between real social and Utopian space lies heterotopia, a collective of material and conceptual social spaces that gerrymander around the jurisdictions of normal social structures of power.
Foucault was fetishized with the image of space as politics. I also consider his obsession of getting lost at S&M clubs as part of his meta-cognitive process in terms of his writings as production. He was looking for “the space” to think about space. Let’s not forget: Michel Foucault died of AIDS, presumably contracted in the San Francisco S&M clubs which he frequented, in 1984. He had previously described the high points in his life as: 1) his first LSD trip (in 1975, at nearly 50 years of age); 2) getting hit by a car and nearly dying while high on opium (1978); and 3) "sex with strangers."
I don’t have such a colourful sex life and I am boring in bed as a conservative-catholic old lady, but I can tell you what I am looking for when I am making an exhibition: I still believe in the possible presence of heterotopias, and for me making an exhibition also means reflecting heterotopias that you have visioning… An exhibition means a new space, and to me this has to be related to the idea of the fetishization of space, not always as a condition but also as a critic to this idea. People would respond to this as heterotopias are natural and found somewhere in life outside where as exhibitions are made by boring curators, however I would say, no there are not! Exhibitions are always there, with us. They just come out when we need them. So making a show is meeting with anonymous people who come to see your show, isn’t it like sex with strangers?
6) What's good gangsters to you? What do you want to achieve with it?
For me, it is a silent consensus understood by how we could work together as a collective, however, it voices loudly as well to the outer world. It is more like an attitude, chemistry or a sort of belief, or something we can be proud of and laugh about when we get old and walk with a stick. I do not think there is any kind of mission statement about Good Gangsters. Yet, it is neither airy. It is about how two people find collaboration possible and sometimes necessary in cultural production. This is based on certain shared interests, different knowledge and the common passion. In the past two years, we shared the same drive to target various important questions while we encountered different cultural context. There were mostly issues regarding to the globalization influence on the local art scene or individual, because we had found lots of crashes in between values and perceptions in different cultures, institutional setups, social realities, and so forth. We care very much about, in a personal level, how one struggle and survive through these confrontations, and we want to deliver an attitude for it. The Good Gangsters attitude. I can see how this thread of thought has been embedded since our first project ‘I don’t know what else to do with myself’3 to ‘Big Family Business’ and ‘Good Gangsters in Town’.
It was not set up for achievement. We started through a very natural process and because of certain needs. Especially in the beginning, it was meant to be a way of working together under the same title, sharing the ideals, and their costs. We want to create a better way of working together to experience the borders of “ideals” in our mind. We have always believed in (that there are) ideals, different from each other, might be from Kant or Hegel, we can discuss, but they are there with us, as we are in a cave like Plato. I can define myself as a Neo-idealist; I am co-edit a magazine that I share the financial costs with my editor friends and distribute it freely or I pay my ticket to make a show if there is no response from the applications if I really believe that that show must be done for a/some reasons… I don’t work for charity, but I take the risks and costs of my profession when there is a need. This also effects how you decide or move in your career; and my motivation is I want to be a good curator. What does this mean to me? I have already decided to take part in this transformation, in this profession, and in this discussion, I mean, the context that contemporary art practice develops has made me feel good as being part of it, producing in it… I will my best regarding my contribution to this sort of transformation of knowledge and society… This is how I feel good, money or success come and go…
On the other hand, I also feel we make a long way together; we have achieved a lot together. We realized two big projects in our home cities; Istanbul, Stockholm, and Taipei. These shows make a triangle together looping the mobility and the production in each context and transiting to the next one. We transformed the institutional organization that we have met through, Curatorlab1. We first met in Curatorlab as the first generation participants after it changed into a research based curatorial program from an M.A. program. We will be back to Stockholm again, as a part of Manifesta 7, Curatorlab will host a final session, bringing together the Hot Desking2 products.
These projects linked us together as collaborators and friends but also as the members of different cultures and identities. We have experienced the exchange of our cultures into a personal level. We have been based on all of these cities for a while and we have got some observations and experience in relation to how each of us deals with his/her culture. This is a very important step to us, and we both know that this is also very rare in people who work together. Mostly, contemporary art people are very quick and open to consumption of labour and others.
7) How do you engage it with your cultural/social/political perspective and practice? or what drives you into these?
One thing about Good Gangsters is that we are both down-to-earth people, sensitive to the surrounding context, and would like to give respond and kick it off. Our personalities help a lot in sharing the run-and-go discussion, and that’s why our projects and ideas are developed to correspond to the very specific context of the sites. For instance, in “Big Family Business”, we adapted the 10th Istanbul Biennial as this project’s context and subject, and we responded to Hou Hanru’s theme on the local economics versus globalization with a critical discussion based project, which formed an open office in the local textile trading center and focused on the local artistic production while addressing to the social and economic crisises. In the exhibition “Good Gangsters in Town”, we took the position of Taipei Fine Arts Museum to the local curatorial practice development as the counter point of our discussion. In both cases, we have very strong political stances toward the local art scene, even though they could come from our love and hatred toward our personal backgrounds. They are personal and political; everything starts from personal requests and addresses to what we see in the socialpolitical reality.
I think your question is very important regarding media as the 4. Big Power. State (or bureaucracy), army and economy (or money) are ruling the world; and technology as an element of power has to negotiate with those in order to keep the balance of its demand and supply, so when I think about media, press and other sources of information processing today, I first see how it is engaged into the world of power regarding these three big channels; state and army needs media to refund money. So at some micro levels thinking, we repeat the same circles as cultural producers, we need to maintain our existence through money, publicity and production. Andy (Warhol) says, publicity is like eating peanuts, when you ever start eating, you can’t stop at all…
So I think, my curatorial strategy is based on that sort of consciousness. Naturally, my strategy is based on the story of how today’s password society functions; today the global village people control and plan their lives with codes and passwords, even identities and cultures are controlled by numbers and colours, rather than values and loves. This is what I am most interested at questioning.
My over-all intention and imagination is dedicated to that; I am not always breaking the rules; but I am trying to challenge these rules and regulations, passwords and codes, which make people unhappy and imprisoned, and propose new ones for freedom and love. I think, I am engaged into my society but I am also connecting it to another one. For instance, the cities such as Istanbul, Taipei, and Stockholm, Berlin, Paris, Copenhagen and etc. These are the cities where we worked in a professional sense, so I can say we have a sort of professional relationship with them regarding their context and art scene. That makes a network! This is my engagement with Good Gangsters . We founded a base for getting connected to the world, not only consuming but also proposing a possible form of collaboration and labour; sharing a ground for ethical and personal values.
8) What is the importance of artistic research and what are your strategies of using it when producing a curatorial approach/statement?
I think this is a natural process that a curator gradually and eventually learns more about their practices from artists who they admire are also their working partners. Artistic research is a wild term that goes across various disciplines in creative ways, and therefore is the most incomprehensible discipline itself. I’d like to take account of what Brad Haseman calls ‘practice-led research’ or ‘performative research’ instead to address the need for the research paradigms beyond that of quantitative and qualitative research in curatorial practices, which in turn appropriates itself to carry social, political and cultural quests.
Art is not a sort of academic discipline or science or an educational practice. It can be used for/within education or science and it can also be a part of them, whereas it can also transform them into itself. Art includes research and the right to make research. On the other hand, art is also a sort of research practice, which produces research based works and processes and as you know from art historians without its research and process, no artwork has a value.
We are working with artistic practice and in order to understand artists’ practice, first we have to support artistic research. We have to provide the conditions and ground for research and critic. From a curatorial point of view, this is our responsibility!
My basic strategy is to understand artistic research and to support it to the level of its final production, sometimes as a form, sometimes as a presentation, sometimes a social interaction or a value. Some curators fail into the trap of analyzing artistic practice as an element of society or human; this is neither science nor education. This is life. Art needs to be -live.
9) 'Performativity' is one of the focuses in good gangsters, and it breaks through some lines across artistic practice. How do you apply this concept, and what do you see within this practice?
Continued from the previously mentioned term performative research, I think when such methodology is applied, it becomes an attitude, an everyday practice, a self-awareness and self-critique. That’s what performativity is about in Good Gangsters, since it is inseperation from the process of research and the production of such performance.
Performative curating or performing curating? Which one of them sounds more relevant to me? In both ways, you are producing some amount of interaction and communication with others but only in one of them, you are paid as a curator! This can be left as a puzzle here, but I think, I can’t stand it as a concept anymore. You know, in general, people abuse words; this is how they make themselves big in other’s eyes, they do it by using ‘bass’ words or passwords. I perform because I curate. Curating is an eclectic form of processing artistic knowledge with curatorial knowledge. “To curate” is a sort word that you can’t define without the word itself, as an oxymoron. I curate because I perform curating.
10) Who is a curator?
If I believe Beuys’ famous slogan ‘everyone is an artist’, then I also believe everyone has his/her turn to be a curator.
A curator is the one who curates! As I have told you before, I think, curating is such a subject matter that you can’t define (it) without using the word itself. If you do, for instance let’s define is as; a curator is the one who makes exhibitions and generates art collections. Then you risk its potential criticality and transformative impact; you risk excluding something such as producing critic or processing artistic practice or basically its DNA, which is the core of it, so better to include it then excluding. A curator is the one who curates...
WHO ASKED WHICH QUESTIONS?
1) Esther 2) Adnan 3) Esther 4) Adnan 5) Adnan 6) Esther 7) Esther 8) Adnan 9) Esther10) Adnan
Answers: Blue- Esther / Black- Adnan
1) Exhibition at Taipei Fine Arts Museum, TFAM, Summer 2008.
2) Curatorlab is a (Stockholm based traveling) curatorial research program at Konstfack, and Hot-Desking is one of the Curatorlab projects as part of the exhibition "TheRest is Now" by Raqs Media Collective, Manifesta 7.
image: Sabah Gazetesi arşiv.